Shooting to the glory of God

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    Logan Lamar

    Hi everyone! It looks like it’s been a couple of weeks since anyone posted a question here… so I thought I’d ask one a bit deeper than why shoot in RAW as opposed to JPEG to listen to your insights. 🙂

    How do we, as followers of Christ who happen to enjoy really great photography, shoot “to the glory of God” (1 Corinthians 10:31)? What does that mean or practically look like? I have a few thoughts and I’m doing a little research from some trusted sources on the Internet… but I want to throw the question out to you first.

    Looking forward to the discussion!


    David Frazer

    I love your question, Logan! Being a Christian photographer is not just about taking great pictures – it is about glorifying God. And when we take (and edit) pictures, that should be no exception. Our focus should be on Him Who created us in His image. I Corinthians 10:31 says, “whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.”

    Photography is an art, and for some a business as well, but it seems that in the minds of many “Christians” these days the arts are some kind of loop-hole in the Law of God. (I could say the same thing about business.) Our carnal relativistic culture has taught us that we can separate our religion and other aspects of our lives and live how we like, but that is certainly not what the Bible teaches!

    Ok, so obviously this applies to a lot more than photography, but to avoid getting distracted, here are a couple of practical thoughts I have had in my rather neutral genre of photography …

    As a real estate photographer, most often it does not make any apparent difference in the final product. I am hired to create photos that will attract and inform potential buyers. There are times, however when it does make a difference to how I shoot and how I conduct business. For example, in real estate everything happens on the weekends. Have I lost business because I don’t work on Sunday? Yes, though it is rare, and normally I can re-schedule for another day. Have I gained anything from this policy? I certainly haven’t gained any clients because of it, but I have gained a deeper relationship with Christ. This should of course be balanced with Romans 14:5-6 “One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord.”

    Another issue I often run into is the art in people’s homes. Some is not fit to be seen. And I believe it is my moral obligation before God to remove any potential stumbling block from those who may be viewing my photos, whether or not they know who took the picture. Sometimes that will change which angle I shoot a given space. Sometimes that is impossible and I must spend additional time in editing out or blurring things that should not be seen.

    I realise that real estate photography is far from being the most morally problematic genre, so I am looking forward to reading other people’s thoughts, too!

    Lydia Bennett

    Fantastic topic, Logan! It’s great to have these types of discussions and encourage one another in the Lord!

    I once heard a preacher ask this very question in context of 1 Corinthians 10:31. What does it mean to bring glory to God (even in mundane things like eating and drinking)? The preacher was saying that it means that in whatever I do, I give others the right opinion about Who I belong to. To do all in such a way that others have the right opinion of our God. “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 5:16).

    That really stuck with me, and so it immediately came to mind when I saw this topic.

    So, what does that look like practically for me as a photographer?

    There are three areas I’ve thought of as I was considering this:

    The purpose of my photography – should not be self-glorification but God-glorification. (John 3:30)

    Do I try to take an amazing photo so that people will think I’m an amazing photographer, or so they’ll see that God is an amazing Creator?

    Do I take pictures for my own elevation and fulfillment, or do I shoot to serve?

    Do I seek to become popular and gain a following on Social Media, or do I invite others to “magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together” (Psalm 34:3)?

    The content of my photography – should not fulfil the lusts of the flesh, but demonstrate a life surrendered to the Spirit (Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:16-17, Romans 8:12-13).

    A word that gets mentioned a lot here on Lenspiration is “intentional”. I think that when we are intentional in the content of our photography that is one way we can give others the right opinion of Who we serve.

    For example, 1 Corinthians 14:40 exhorts, “Let all things be done decently and in order.” This is one reason I would tend to stay away from abstract art, and also why I try to learn more about tools of composition and how to train my eye to intentionally set up shots.

    Of course portrait photography is an obvious area where content is a hot-button issue. But in general, modest clothing draws attention to the face, and immodest clothing draws attention away from the face. So, where is attention drawn when the photo is viewed? Does the pose or the way the person is dressed “make provision for the flesh” (Rom. 13:14) and potentially lead others into sin (Philippians 1:10, 1 Cor 10:23-33) or is attention drawn to the subject’s countenance?

    I found it very interesting to read @dfrazer’s comments that this is something that can come up even in a “neutral” area like real-estate photography, and again, that gets back to the idea of being intentional in the way we set up our shots. It was encouraging to hear the way he navigates that area.

    My attitude in my photography – should focus on others rather than myself (Philippians 2:5-7)

    When I’m out doing a shoot, what is my attitude? What kind of testimony do I have to those that I’m interacting with?

    Am I so nervous and shy that I demonstrate that I’m thinking more about myself and my comfort zone than about others?

    Am I overly confident or prideful and don’t want others to give me suggestions or advice?

    Do I demonstrate a concern for the needs of others and follow Christ’s example of love (John 15:9), or do I get so focused on taking photos that I forget those around me?

    And certainly, if I’m going about to do my best to give glory to God and give others the right opinion of Who I serve, that means I need to continue to get to know Him better myself by spending quality time in His Word and in prayer. It’s important that I’m abiding in Him and letting Him bear His fruit through me (John 15:4-5)!

    Well, I’m sure there’s a lot more that could be said; this topic has not even begun to be exhausted….but I’ll stop here for now since I’m not out to write a book! 🙂 Plus, I’m looking forward to seeing what others say as well!

    “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.” (1Peter 2:9-12)

    Joshua Ong

    I thought of offering some suggestions on photography ideas that could bring glory to the Lord.

    Keeping the “intentional” in mind, I think it would be good to take pictures with the intention of pointing viewers to salvation and the Saviour (e.g. a cross, lamb, or dove). Another idea would be to take pictures that highlight God’s amazing creation as a testament of the awesomeness of the Creator (e.g. intricacy of beautiful flowers or butterflies).

    I realise that in both suggestions, the photographer would most likely need to watermark the pictures with text to inform viewers of the photographer’s intentions. Ultimately, shooting for the glory of God would include photography that focuses on God.

    James Staddon

    Such a great question, @loganlamar! I’ve thought a lot about it, and I’m still trying to figure it out! Here are a couple thoughts from my perspective.

    God is glorified when His will is done. I have my own ideas of how to glorify Him, but the fact of the matter is, because He’s the One that knows best how He can be glorified, then when I have the desire to glorify Him (which I desire to be always), I find myself turning my attention on understanding and doing His will for the situation I happen to be in at the moment.

    This manifests itself in a couple different ways. For instance….

    How I take pictures. In the genre I enjoy most, landscape, I find myself in many situations that challenge my desire to do His will. Impatience, frustration, not thinking of other’s time, discontentment, glory in self achievement….these are all temptations that are obviously not doing what God would want me to do in the moment. So, if God can lead me in victory in these small decisions, then regardless of whether or not anyone is watching, God is glorified in me. If there are others watching, then there is the opportunity for God to be glorified in them too, as they see the “good works” and (perhaps without even knowing it) they agree with God that those right actions taken were indeed “good”.

    What I take pictures of. Again, having my goal to do God’s will out of a desire to love Him with all of my heart navigates me through this as well. Knowing what is or is not acceptable to be seen, as @dfrazer mentioned, is completely relative if you do not have some sort of a guideline to go by. Like the Bible. That’s why culture doesn’t have any problem with things now that it used to have a problem with in the past. The role of the Bible as its guide is less now than it was before. And the same thing is true in Christian culture. The interpretation of Scripture has changed. (Why this is true is another topic.) But the fact is, every single person is going to have a different interpretation of what the Bible has to say about modesty, and so it’s a good topic to discuss, especially within our own families, and we each need to know for ourselves exactly what God’s will is in this matter. But having my focus on doing God’s will is what guides me in making decisions in what I will or will not take pictures of, and this ultimately is what glorifies Him. I do a lot of wedding photography, so this is very much a matter I talk to God about a lot.

    What I intend to express with my photos. Even through inanimate objects, I can express the lusts of my flesh (how deceitfully wicked my heart is!), so I seek always to be sensitive to the promptings of His Holy Spirit so that the consequences of “deception” and “confusion” can be avoided.

    How I share my photos. @bennett-family touched on this really well. The closer we draw near to God, the more the light of Christ will reveal the impurities in our inner motives.

    So, really, photography is just like any other activity. You can do the exact same outward action, and in one situation it glorifies God, and in another situation, if you’re heart isn’t right, then it doesn’t glorify God. Jesus said, “I can of mine own self do nothing…I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent Me” (John 5:30).

    To me, in order to glorify God as a photographer, I must live a life of complete surrender. Oh how I desire in all things to “approve things that are excellent” (Philippians 1:10).

    In addition to this, of course, I do everything I can to outwardly proclaim the name of Jesus Christ too, whether it’s witnessing or handing out tracts while I’m out taking pictures, adding Scripture to my photos, recommending Christ-affiliated photography-related resources (like Lightstock) . . . or helping a missionary who needs photos! Hint, hint 🙂

    • This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by James Staddon.
    Kina Lamb

    I haven’t been on here in awhile… I came back to ask a question, and then found one of my very favorite questions being discussed! I could not pass it by, especially since I’ve already written my answer. I wrote a guest post about photography once, and one of the questions was, “Do you think that photography can be used for God’s glory?” So I just copied and pasted the answer I gave, with some edits:

    “Do you think that photography can be used for God’s glory?”

    Um… YES!!! I’ve already mentioned how it has helped me to praise God – by the way, did you know that there’s a verse in Psalms that says “Whoever offers praise glorifies Me”? I was so excited when I read that, because it’s so clear 😀 – and there are other ways as well. The Bible tells us that everything we do should be for the glory of God, and this applies to photography. Without God we can do nothing. (John 15:5.) He is the One who created everything that we will ever take a picture of, and the One who gave us the creative ability to showcase His work well. If we don’t give the credit, praise, and glory to God, we are keeping it for ourselves. I love this verse from Psalm 115:1 that says, “Not unto us, O Lord, not unto us, but to Your Name give glory because of Your mercy, because of Your truth.”

    Let me explain exactly how photography can be used for God’s glory. I feel very strongly that it needs to be understood thoroughly!

    Hebrews 12:14 tells us that “Without holiness, no one can see the Lord.” By ourselves, none of us are holy. Our iniquities, like the wind, have carried us away, and we are like an unclean thing, so the Bible says in Isaiah. God is radiantly pure, and our sin, which is rebellion against His law, is not only extremely insulting, but just like darkness simply cannot come into the presence of light and sit next to it, sinners cannot come into the presence of the holy God without being obliterated. Because God is a good judge, He must punish us. A sinner daily breaks God’s commands in thought, word, and deed. Even by elevating something higher than God in one’s estimation, being ungrateful, not valuing the things He values and valuing the things He hates, harboring dishonoring thoughts about our parents, hating someone, looking at someone with lust, taking something we don’t own, whether it’s time, honor, or a possession, twisting the truth, or wanting something that God has not given us, we are rebelling against His commandments. We are not sick with sin-itis or really far behind on our good-deeds payments. We are dead as in the “dead-at-the-bottom-of-the-ocean-with-fish-swimming-inside-of-our-carcass” type of dead in sin. We don’t just need ‘a little Jesus in our life.’ First of all, we’ve got to get some life! As the book of Isaiah says, “You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—In these ways we continue; and we need to be saved.” It’s a pretty bad situation we’re in without Jesus. We have condemned ourselves (John 3:18) to judgment in hell. But praise the Lord, that’s not the end of the story! Jesus, the Son of God, willingly bore all of God’s wrath on Himself. He stood condemned in our place and says that whoever believes on Him alone will be saved from the wrath to come. The person dead before receiving eternal life only desires to do whatever they do for themselves – to make themselves happy and glorified. The life that lives in God, out of gratitude for the life that He gave to them, desires to glorify and please GOD with everything that they do. Including in their photography.

    In order to glorify God, I strive to do my work with excellence. My main goal is for people to want to praise God for what they see in my photos. It might not cross their mind if they can’t even see what’s in the photo because of the low quality of it.

    In order to glorify God, I strive to do my work with joy. I aspire to live each moment in gratitude. Even if my photos don’t inspire anyone else to glorify God, I will glorify Him myself for all that I see. Also, when my work involves being around other people, my prayer is that my joy would be so abundant that it would cause them to wonder about its source. I will not let myself lean on ‘joy’ as my only channel for sharing the gospel, though. For the glory of God, when He sovereignly puts me in someone else’s life, I dedicate myself to not being ashamed of the gospel, but sharing the good news (and bad news first, if they’ve never heard it) of Christ’s sacrifice. Our pastors’ wife, who is a wedding photographer, shared with me that whenever she is asked on the wedding day to stay longer than she had initially been asked, if she can, she says yes and tells them how much more she will charge for the extra time. Then, when she leaves, she hands them an envelope that has a document in it that she has already printed out. It says, “Paid in full” and then goes on to describe how she wants to share a practical symbol of what she has experienced in reality – Jesus paid for her sin in full, and it shares the gospel in that document. She obviously doesn’t cancel out the payment for her weddings, but only the extra money that they would have paid her for staying late. When I say that I dedicate myself to sharing the gospel, I don’t mean in a creepy sort of way, but naturally, whenever possible, and creatively, as God gives me opportunities… perhaps like the one above!

    Some things are visually impure/unholy. My commitment is to never let a captured image of that to get onto my memory card, for several reasons: 1: It would be elevating something that is ungodly and abiblical (Philippians 4:8.) 2: it might cause someone to stumble in their walk with Christ, and 3: it might lower someone’s estimation of God, and reduce His glory. Since the eyes are the window to the soul, Philippians 4:8 is my guideline in this regard.

    (Note: I then shared one of my favorite pictures of a certain flower.)

    Do you see what I mean about photography helping us to praise the wonderful Creator for things we might have missed? I love flowers, but I might not have taken the time to admire this one. Now, I look at it all the time, and am just amazed at God’s love for me whenever I see it. I love this photo because it is the prime example of something I would totally have missed if I weren’t a photographer. You can’t tell, but the berries are tiny in real life. What beauty! I praise God for His endless creativity!

    Imagine through this fictional story with me: Your best friend is a talented artist, and they just let you know that some of their work was bought by a new art museum that just opened up in your area. You, being an amazing friend, go to the museum to check it out. While there, you notice all sorts of different works of art. You skim past them, scanning the names of the artists below until you find your best friends’ name. “Woah!” you exclaim as you take in every detail of their work. “This is amazing!” You lean closer for a better view. After a minute of awe, you glance around to see if anyone else has noticed how amazing this is. Everyone else in the museum is enamored with something else. “Hey everyone!!!” you shout. “Guess what – my friend’s amazing, stunning, and unbelievable artwork is hanging right here!!! Come check it out!!” Then you race off in search of their next piece of art.

    This is kind of how it is with me and God’s creation. Because of my relationship with God, whenever I come across something in nature that catches my eye, I think, “Woah! God did this? Wow! I’m actually looking at something that my God made! Hey guys, look at this!! Oh, there’s no one around. No worries, let me take a picture of it so that they can see it for themselves. I still can’t believe that the God that I know and love, the God who died for me to save me, made this thing right here in front of me that I’m looking at!” I lean in for a closer look. “Oh yeah, I can totally see why God would create something like that. My God, He loves purity. This reflects His character! Oh, look over here! How beautiful! This reminds me of his holiness, (by the way, His holiness is often described as ‘beautiful’ in the Bible) – and how much He loves me, because He died to erase my sin and shame and clothe me in righteousness. Now this over here, He obviously put a lot of care into. And He cares for me way more than He cares for this plant! Oh, look, there’s the sun! That reminds me of how He said that His mercies are new every morning!” If it’s snowing, or raining, or windy, or sunny, it reminds me of verses pertaining to that, and part of God’s character. There are reminders and symbols of the gospel everywhere one might look! You see you much fun I have? (By the way, here’s an article I wrote on 20 everyday symbols that remind me of the gospel:

    That was the guest post I wrote on someone’s blog awhile back. Here are some more thoughts I’ve had since then:

    In the evolutionary worldview, nothing beautiful should exist, because we are all just an accident. We’re ‘random molecules that bumped together the right way.’ Beauty points immediately to a Designer who created the world with purpose. Beauty stabs an unbelievers’ conscience. If you notice, unbelievers’ art is centered around mess, confusion, randomness, ugliness, and meaninglessness. They’re running away from anything that reflects His likeness. God is holy and beautiful and intelligent and compassionate. Our photos can proclaim, “See how awesome God is! See how wonderfully He lovingly designed this world for us! See what care and purpose He programmed into our lives! See how brilliantly He created us! See Him, oh see Him!

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
    ~ Romans 1:20

    Like this verse says, the world knows about God through what He has made. But they intentionally put their hands over their eyes and turn they other way. Photography can be a way to turn them around and say,


    God has made everything that we can know about Him clear to us through the things that He is made… even what He is like! (Romans 1:19-20.) Every man on earth is faced with a choice – either to acknowledge the Obvious and submit to His authority, or ignore the Obvious and continue in their way of living (or dead-ing, really,) that pleases them the best. There are consequences for both. Photography is a great way to ‘get the word out’ so to speak, about God and His glory through what He has made. People might not read a book about the gospel, but perhaps they will think about the Author behind the beauty, order, and creativity they saw in a photo?

    Logan Lamar

    I have zero idea where my reply went… I clicked “edit” and resubmitted it… and it disappeared… so (fortunately it was still on my profile. At the risk of having a duplicate:

    Wow! I definitely got the replies I was hoping for, and I’m thrilled a lot of you seem to have put a lot of thought into this.

    Let me share mine from the hip and off the top of my head, and then I might circle back to some of yours (because you guys have some really insightful thoughts).

    I think there are two vantage points that we can bring God glory through painting with light.
    The first is the creature-Creator relationship. When we create something, whether that’s a musical composition or a photographic composition, we reflect God. We create because God creates. We value beauty because God values beauty. And we even use some of the same rules for creating that He does (some of you might be familiar with the Fibonacci spiral). It’s all just imitation—and anybody can tell you one of the most flattering compliments you can receive is “I want to be just like you.” When we “copy” God in our creative endeavors, there’s an intrinsic glory that is received from that. God created us to create, and when we create, we show His design even in ourselves.
    That’s another aspect of the creature-Creator relationship. I was watching the Super Bowl a couple of weeks ago with my siblings, and it blew me away that the quarterback could find a receiver amidst the sea of guys running all over the place and, not only that, deliver a precision hit to the moving target (while trying to keep an eye on all of the defenders trying to jump on him). I watched that, and while I did thought “Wow, what a great quarterback”, I was also thinking “Wow! how amazing is this creation! and how amazing must the Creator be!”. I get the same thing whenever I look at a bridge, or even right now, staring into the screen of my iMac. Never mind the people God designed to design something like a digital camera sensor—excuse me, how amazing is the human mind? And we evolved from… apes?? I don’t see any of them building rockets to go the moon! So there’s also an innate glory that God receives from His creation when we use our talents and giftings in whatever our craft may be, in the same way that even the “heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1).

    Now, what about the other vantage point: the God-man relationship. This is to be distinguished from the creature-Creator relationship. A fish can bring glory to God just by being a fish and having gills and swimming miles back home to lay eggs, in the same way as man can bring glory to God just by taking dominion of the creation and building bridges, rockets, and computers. But the God-man relationship is where we recognize that we are moral agents created differently than the rest of creation. Men have souls. Fish do not. Men have consciences. Fish do not. Men will live eternally in one of two places. Fish will not. Men have moral responsibility. Fish do not. We are specifically designed to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, to borrow from the old catechism.
    Cleary, we do not bring God glory when we violate His commandments—and it’s possible to do that playing football, building bridges, using a computer, or taking pictures. I think there’s at least two broad ways we can do this in photography.
    The first is by taking pictures of things that would cause someone to stumble (Romans 14:13). Many of you have touched on this, and I really respect a lot of you guys (and gals 🙂 ) on this forum making a serious effort to follow this principle (I’ve seen borderline photos pulled down voluntarily and willingly). I do think that there does need to be a limit as to how far we analyze each photo (i.e. I don’t hold computer sellers morally responsible for what somebody might do with them); forget portrait photography, we might as well stop taking photos of beautiful landscapes because it might cause someone to covet the opportunity to be there. Where that limit is, however, I don’t have a hard line to offer (just like there’s not going to be a hard line of what’s considered “modest” or not). Much of deciding what causes a brother or sister to stumble will depend on your understanding of Scripture actually says, what wise people say, and after that, your own conscience before the Lord.
    The second way I think we can fail to bring God glory in our craft is by taking glory from Him. Nothing is wrong with having an art and being good at it (the creature-Creator relationship). But when we exalt ourselves as if we gave ourselves artistic talent, or that it was by our own doing and might (practice!) we got to be so good, we fall into the same error as the Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4:30. God is the one who gives us talents, and the means to practice our art, and even the breath in our lungs (not to mention He made the first camera—you’ve probably got two of them, and they use some similar mechanics as your DSLR!). For us to even begin to be great at what we do, He has to give it to us.
    Thank Him for the ability to shoot and to be good at it. It’s a valid pleasure and a great way to unwind.

    Logan Lamar

    After that, some rapid fire thoughts:

    , your gospel-centric perspective is super refreshing! I love how every subject that catches your eye is an object lesson that somehow, some way, points back to Calvary. You can never have too many reminders.

    I remember Foundations of Photography lesson 1, with its four principles: they all equated to loving the Lord, which is the first and greatest commandment. If our hearts are truly set on God, we won’t have any problems with sin. This is why heaven is going to be so amazing and us who know the Lord already have a little taste of it with a changed heart with the new, albeit imperfect, desire to love and fully enjoy God, which manifests itself in full obedience.


    Ultimately, shooting for the glory of God would include photography that focuses on God.

    How it focuses on God or what attribute it highlights is up to the photographer—but, while I’d perhaps disagree with you that we’d perhaps need to watermark photos to reveal the intention, I think you sum up well what it means to glorify God in everything. Not just in photography, but in everything we do, our focus needs to be on God (living Coram Deo, before God’s face), and our affections set on things above (Colossians 3:2-3).

    I like your three principles, and I might need to print them out and put them somewhere where I can see them.


    Our carnal relativistic culture has taught us that we can separate our religion and other aspects of our lives and live how we like, but that is certainly not what the Bible teaches!

    Even in our everyday lives, it’s easy to keep the “Sunday best” in the closet Monday through Saturday. What we need to remember—and you seem to have a great handle on this—is that love doesn’t stop. As clichéd as it sounds, God doesn’t stop loving us Monday through Saturday. The gospel—that Jesus died for sinners who by faith cling to Him—is still true on Monday. Grace still flows to unworthy people on Tuesday. And God is still good the rest of the week. We can’t stop loving Him and obeying Him because He never stops loving us (2 Cor 5:14-15, 1 Jn 4:19). And when we do stop obeying Him, we must repent, because His goodness draws us back to Him (Romans 2:4). Every area must be submitted to the Lord. I hope that all makes sense.

    Final couple of thoughts, though if you haven’t replied to this forum, please do so!

    If you know the Lord and you’re anything like me, you need to get this one principle through to your head, especially if you’re hesitating to give up something that could be sinful. Maybe you’ve been living in an area of clear sin, with your photography or otherwise. I read this in one of my Old Testament Survey college course books, but understand this:

    God is not a cosmic killjoy.

    He doesn’t ask you to do things so you will be miserable. If you know the Lord, it is a real joy to obey the One who redeemed you and to please Him in all things. Go all in, and do it heartily.


    Lydia Bennett

    Praise the Lord for edifying discussions like this! 1 Timothy 1:4 comes to mind as I reflect on this conversation: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.” I’d say that “godly edifying” just happened right here. It was so encouraging, and, I’ll be honest, challenging to read through. It was neat to see the variety of angles that were expressed on the topic. Many needful reminders to digest.

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